暗网禁区

01/18/25 @sjpetzold.聽 Good morning.聽 You're right, this is a good time to be thinking about this.聽 Unfortunately you're also right, that advice varies widely.聽 I'm sorry that you haven't found a Brazilian tax advisor that you can trust.聽 I think that the most important thing if you can't find one who knows everything (because who does?) is to find one who works to answer questions and to learn things that s/he is not familiar with, rather than making assumptions.聽 In the end you'll be dependent on this person, so keep good records of all your discussions.

My latest input on this topic appears in Post #5 in this thread:

/forum/viewtopic.p 鈥� 24#6011885

I handle my US finances similar to the way that you do, except for filing status because our situations are a little different there.聽 My Brazilian taxes on my US income were about 40% of my US taxes last year, a little higher than previous years but still in the same range.聽 As always, that's not advice, just another data point for you.聽 All the best!

@sjpetzold Good Luck! I think you are on the right track. I have my U.S. money deposited into PayPal. When I withdraw money, it is through the Red ATM machines at the Supermercados which convert the American dollars into reals. No taxes have been paid through that method...though if I am wrong, I will need a Brazilian Safe House after tax season, 馃槓

Roddie in Retirement馃暤

@roddiesho good plan! My Brazilian wife and I are not coming back to Brazil primarily over the tax situation. The Brazilian gov鈥檛. Is GREEDY. There is no excuse for them to tax Social Security payments deposited in a Brazilian bank account but they do. Going by their tax chart, we would be in the 27.5 % category. Sorry, but I鈥檓 not giving up that much money for what Brazil offers in return. Hello, Argentina!

@Robert Laney

Are you referring to SS payments made to you in Brazil by Brazil, or payments made to you in the US that you transfer to Brazil? I think you may have been badly advised...

@Peter Itamaraca Not sure who or what was supposed to be advising me.

In my very complicated life, I was relentlessly hounded by a rather unscrupulous company that acquired my credit card debt from our Brazilian Cafe (MD.) when the credit card company went out of business.聽 They received a judgement against ANY deposits I had in banks in Maryland.聽 My saving grace was in using PayPal.聽 When it was time to receive my social security, I had it deposited into my PayPal account. Now that I live here I still receive my social security in dollars.

Roddie in Retirement馃暤

@Peter Itamaraca

Hi, Peter. From what I read our Social Security funds that we transfer to Brazil is taxed at the rate of 27.5% because we make way more than the cut off for the lower tax brackets. I researched that for weeks and consulted an accountant, legally there is no way to get out of paying them the tax. There is also plenty of info on Google about foreign residents having to pay tax. If you have info about something different, please share!

01/19/25 @Robert Laney.聽 There is no question that Brazil taxes the worldwide income of permanent residents and resident citizens.聽 There are formal policies to minimize double taxation, but they're rather opaque for citizens of countries that don't have tax treaties with Brazil.聽

The 27.5% rate is a marginal rate in a progressive system, not a flat tax.聽 My own income is comfortably higher than the average retiree income in the United States, and my total income taxes, US and Brazilian together, are well below 27.5%.聽 As I mentioned above,聽 my Brazilian accountant has all of my income information and my US Income Tax Return as filed in front of her when she prepares my Brazilian return.聽 What I didn't mention is that she also has a standing instruction, repeated annually, that I want to pay everything that I legitimately owe, and no more or less than I legitimately owe:聽 no cheating, or even corner-cutting.

I offer this strictly as data points:聽 I'm not in the business of convincing people to move to Brazil, quite the contrary.聽 Successful 暗网禁区s in Brazil are generally a self-selected lot who are well aware of the many downsides of living here, and have made an informed decision that the many advantages, which seem obvious to us, far outweigh them.聽 Brazil is in no way any kind of tax haven, and I don't know anyone who moved here with that in mind.聽 I hope that Argentina, or somewhere else, turns out to be what you're looking for:聽 being unhappy in retirement is no way to live!

Thanks for the response. To me, any tax on Social Security retirement income is reason to avoid that country. Especially 鈥渄eveloping nation鈥� countries. First World countries, maybe I could consider it. There are too many countries in the developing nation category that have no retirement income taxes. Happy retirement, and good luck.

@sjpetzold

鈥漈WENTY SEVEN PERCENT 鈥�. (27%). However you write it it鈥檚 a BIG number. So, the question for the long time 暗网禁区s today is what 27% of income really means? Is the tax you pay on your USA income 27% of gross or is 27% of Adjusted Gross USA Income? If it鈥檚 TOTAL gross, are there loopholes such as making investments in the Brazilian stock market? Maybe I could plant trees on my wife鈥檚 land as a reforestation project? Are there the equivalent of IRAs in Brazil? There must be products to lower your taxable income, or am I dreaming? Anyway, any information would be helpful as there doesn鈥檛 seem to be much discussion about the grueling聽 details of the dreaded 鈥淭WENTY SEVEN PERCENT 鈥� Brazilian tax rate.

Brasil is not a tax haven. Having visited these kinds of countries, I am glad it is not.

The top marginal tax rate is not high if you compare it to other jurisdictions around the globe. You need professional advice, not just internet advice. In Canada I lost 48% of every cheque to government deductions. In Russia I pay 10% on income, and Russia is 10x a better place to live than Canada.

You can move to Svalbard Robert, no visa required, no property purchase or other residency requirements other than you have to show you can support yourself. No income tax of any kind. Minus 20 Celsius and dark 24 hours for 6 months of the year, plus, you've got to carry a rifle with you when you are outside due to polar bears and wolves. But, no tax or residency rules, plus it's Norway.

Monaco also comes to mind. No income taxes of any kind, but there is a VAT of 20% on all purchases. A tiny one bedroom flat is several million Euro's and you cannot rent cheap as you are not a Monegasque citizen. You'll also need a minimum of $1MM Euros cash to open a bank account, although most won't talk to you unless you have at least $5MM.

So, consider what the reality is, and don't concern yourself with tripping over dollar bills to pick up nickels at tax time. Good things are not free, and cheap things are not good.

Brasil is in between these two examples.

Choose the place that makes you happy.聽 Pay the price. Good luck.

Yes, by all means, find a professional that you trust.聽 I talked to an accountant after I'd been in Brazil for about a year (all my friends were talking about their taxes coming due), who informed me that, since all my income (monthly Social Security, quarterly distributions from retirement accounts and modest investments) was coming from US sources, I didn't need to worry about Brazilian taxes.聽 I let that slide for a year, but the discomfort grew.聽 I didn't want any trouble down the pike and that advice just didn't jibe with other information I was reading and hearing,聽 I asked here on the Forum for the name of someone trusted and I got in touch with him -- actually a tax attorney, not just an accountant.聽 Long story short, he helped me get everything up to date (yes, back taxes and penalties included) and I feel confident that now, as I apply for a more permanent resident status, and all the info that the government has -- or could have -- on me will not complicate matters.聽 So I pay my monthly DARF, my US income taxes and, now, for the past year, quarterly state gift taxes on money from a family Trust that my brother set up, gifting the distributions to his 7 siblings.聽 (Yeah, I know.聽 A very generous brother.)聽 The Trust gifts have been a challenge and he reached out to my brother's accountant to get the exact information he needed to see how it should be taxed.聽

So yeah, I trust him.

The law office (I'm also getting their help as I seek to change my 2-year status to one of prazo indeterminado) and I do everything by email, as they are several states away, down in Florian贸polis.聽 If you want more information, reach out to me in a private message.聽 He does speak (or, at least, writes!) excellent English.

Janet

Wow very informative information here.....

I just recently received my (CRNM) card...my 2 year residency聽 (Similar to a US Green card)...My wife and I live in Florida but am wondering about living (part time--maybe more) in the future in Brazil.聽 聽I really didnt think too much about "TAXES" but now I am wondering from reading above.聽 I have SS retirement benefits and a pension---does anyone know how that is taxed in Brazil--if still lving in the US?聽 聽Any reccoemdations?聽 I have used a attorney for past things...but maybe a Tax attorney would be a better route (for 2026 in the future)....

thanks

Mickey

On a follow up today....I got a request from a Tax attorney聽 that they want to do a "Tax Planning Analysis" on my sitaution since I received a new RNM card.

Has anyone done this?....they want $1,500 (USD) for this聽 聽a 2026 income tax declaration and legal opinion plus the analysis....was a little curious as so high...or is the norm in Brazil?

thanks

mickey

02/13/25 @easygoer1050.聽 That sounds pretty high for me, given the way you've described your living situation so far.聽 As I understand it, you've never stayed more than 180 days in Brazil before obtaining your CRNM, and don't live here now, correct?

If the person that proposed to charge you US$1,500 for a "Tax Planning Analysis" and it isn't the person that @Viajanete recommended in Post #12 above, you might want to talk to that person before deciding anything.

Abthree-

Thanks for the info.....no it was a tax/real estate lawyer from the Amorim office in Sao Paulo聽 (Overall they have done a nice job...but this part of the firm is running quite high...BUT wanted to see feedback)....

Yes my situation is a NEW resident here (Brazil)...but have never stayed longer than 8 days (Because of a family situation here with my dad)..聽 BUT trying to see about possibilities of buying or staying longer .聽 聽I would like to see "other options" and will look at the post above again....

$1,500 IMO is a lot...just to "review"聽 聽BUT聽 TBH--I didnt even know I would be subjeted to taxes while not owning (or working) in Brazil....yeah maybe interest on a bank account (when opened) but that was it...

Thanks聽 Mickey

@Viajanete

Janet

HI聽 can you share his name and info?....thanks

Mickey

02/14/25 @Viajanete JanetHI can you share his name and info?....thanksMickey - @easygoer1050

Send her a DM -- the little black box with a tail in the upper right of the screen -- she said above that she'd forward it in response.

There's a difference of opinion here on the site as to when tax liability begins for someone with a CRNM.聽 I've always thought that it was 183 days after settling here permanently; others believe that it begins immediately once one is living here.聽 My experience is ambiguous, because I got my CIE (now CRNM) in December of 2017 and filed my first income tax return in April of 2019 for Tax Year 2018 and paid no penalty, but arriving so late in 2017 I probably would have benefitted from any grace period anyway.聽 In addition, there have been several changes to the tax laws since then, so up to date tax advice is a good idea, and I hope that you'll share what you feel you can.

But regardless of any changes in the tax laws, once the PF issue your CRNM the assumption is that you live in Brazil wherever you physically are, so getting some expert confirmation of your status is the best plan.

ABTHREE

Thank you so much for this information (as well as for past inforamtion...last year as well)聽 聽 the biggest thing is what you wrote about this:

once the PF issue your CRNM the assumption is that you live in Brazil wherever you physically are,

That is the point I guess what I needed to take....I will utilize what you wrote and ask above.....do you have someone you would like to share?聽 (or others with a positive experience?)

thanks again

Mickey

Mickey -

S贸 sorry!聽 I'm sure you think I ghosted you.聽 It's just that I haven't logged on for awhile and I didn't see your PM.聽 I've now replied back to you via personal message.聽 Again, my apologies for my very belated reply..

@abthree

Thx for all you do.聽 I actually put off my move until the end of year so I'm not a tax resident this year.聽 I have VA disability (which isn't taxed and have no plans to bring into the countries banks) but what I'm confused on is capital gains.聽 I do lots of active trading in my US accounts, does this now get paid to Brazil and I receive credit for my US taxes? That being said I think we see a massive flush and I'll probably just go long risk assets for 5-10 years and if I hit a windfall I may just leave for a tax year to close.

Edit - from what I gather the tax rates on cap gains seem to be overall very similar (even more favorable in Brazil tbh on short term trades)

03/20/25 @Mannimal.聽 聽Good morning.聽 Thanks for the kind words.聽 My understanding of the general environment is that the United States will not allow you any deduction or credit for Brazilian taxes on US income, and that if you're an active trader Brazil will expect you to declare the gains and losses on your trades, so the "direction" of the transactions will be to pay your US taxes first, and then credits or deductions should be available on your Brazilian taxes for US taxes already paid.聽

My own investment strategy is the polar opposite of yours -- I'm a classic Buy-and-Hold guy who takes advantage of gains almost exclusively to offset and shed losers --聽 so I have zero personal experience with the details.聽 You'll have to consult a Brazilian tax expert for that.聽 All the best!

@abthree

Yeah I guess that's something I'll have to consult on the ground when I get there in September.聽 Weird that I'd owe US taxes first and then Brazil, it was always my understanding it was the opposite once you have stayed somewhere more than 183 days unless they don't tax worldwide income.聽 Brazil is 暗网禁区ting on hard mode lol, but that's a good thing through a certain lens.聽 The plan is to buy and hold long term starting around this December anyway, so I'll have a couple years to figure it out.聽

03/20/25聽 Brazil is 暗网禁区ting on hard mode lol, - @Mannimal

Very true.聽 Brazil will let foreigners who meet its qualifications come here, but except for the Portuguese, citizens of other Mercosul countries, and refugees who qualify for asylum under a strict reading of international law, it hardly brushes off the Welcome mat and聽 rolls out the red carpet.聽

One fact that I find striking and that is almost never commented on (which is striking in itself) is that although Brazil suffers from the same political polarization that is now common to most other liberal democracies, it's a real outlier on the subject of immigration.聽 聽There seems to be a general societal consensus that Brazil's immigration policies are about right just as they are, and no significant pressure is evident from any faction along the political spectrum from extreme Left to extreme Right to either loosen or tighten them significantly.

re:聽 YouTube channel for taxes for 暗网禁区s, especially Americans in or considering Brazil

There is a young, well-informed (and pretty!)聽 Brazilian tax attorney - Carla Padilha - who has posted many tax law videos on YouTube in the past 2-3 months. I have consulted with her myself and I found her to be very professional. She also provides a strict interpretation of the tax laws which may become more relevant to 暗网禁区s as the current government is looking for more revenue to pay for deficits.

In particular, in her videos Carla provides updates on tax law changes since Dec 2023 that affect 暗网禁区s, especially those from countries like the USA that do not have tax treaties with Brazil.

Carla鈥檚 site is at this link, with short, informative videos titled in English:

[link under review]/@p4d1com?si=xc5Q1XSRnAonPilK

As others have noted in this 暗网禁区 forum, Brazil is NOT a tax haven for 暗网禁区s - esp Americans.

JR

@Viajanete

Good afternoon (and happy Easter)聽 聽 聽I just came on here...I never received any message from you..could you try again?

thanks

mickey

@abthree
Thx for all you do. I actually put off my move until the end of year so I'm not a tax resident this year. I have VA disability (which isn't taxed and have no plans to bring into the countries banks) but what I'm confused on is capital gains. I do lots of active trading in my US accounts, does this now get paid to Brazil and I receive credit for my US taxes? That being said I think we see a massive flush and I'll probably just go long risk assets for 5-10 years and if I hit a windfall I may just leave for a tax year to close.
Edit - from what I gather the tax rates on cap gains seem to be overall very similar (even more favorable in Brazil tbh on short term trades) - @Mannimal

Hi,

you mentioned that disability pensions aren鈥檛 taxed: do you mean in Brazil? Can I ask how do you know that? And how does it work in practice: do you have to declare it but you won鈥檛 get taxed, or can you just not declare anything at all if it鈥檚 my only source of income?

Here a couple of updates I just heard about Brazil taxes. First if you leave the country and you been a tax payer. You have to file a document saying your leaving Brazil if you don鈥檛 Brazil will consider as taxable for 12 months. Also tax all your assets and any income you receive.